Comments on: Ukraine http://www.economicmanblog.com/sandbox/2014/09/22/ukraine/ Economics, Policy, Finance and General Culture Fri, 22 Mar 2019 01:56:16 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.7.13 By: Roger http://www.economicmanblog.com/sandbox/2014/09/22/ukraine/#comment-3252 Tue, 23 Sep 2014 06:18:30 +0000 http://www.economicmanblog.com/sandbox/?p=510#comment-3252 According to Mearsheimer, and according to a quick Google search, both Ukraine and Georgia have been flirting with NATO and, more openly, the EU since 2008. This love has not always been requited, but on the other hand, I don’t think that the West has forthrightly said “no and never” either even though the Russians have made their paranoia manifest. Meanwhile, NATO has continued to grow — including an expansion in 2009 to include Croatia and, incredibly, Albania, a country otherwise known only for ruthlessly of its organized criminals and its continuing commitment to the vendetta — while its counterparty, the Warsaw Pact, has disappeared. This is clearly a case of an organization in search of a function, allowed to run wild by the politicians.

Look, I think that I make clear that I have no love for Putin and the voters who put him in power, and I don’t believe that Putin and his domestic supporters are right in their worldview. But they are a fact. My only standard of judgment is what is good policy for the US. And I don’t think that it is good policy for the US to antagonize Russia in support of a westernization of the Ukraine that, given their history and culture, will probably never materialize in any case.

If Putin, as I say, is bent on restoring Russian dominance of middle Europe, then this is a different matter and would require a different response. But, to my knowledge, the case is far from proven and time is on our side.

]]>
By: David Kinnard http://www.economicmanblog.com/sandbox/2014/09/22/ukraine/#comment-3222 Tue, 23 Sep 2014 03:36:12 +0000 http://www.economicmanblog.com/sandbox/?p=510#comment-3222 You know, no one, to my knowledge, mentioned NATO membership for the Ukraine. Sure, Yanokovich’s job was to get the best deal from both the EU and Russia, but his personal greed always took first place before the interests of the nation. This let the genie out of the bottle. The war, like Yanokovich, is Putin’s creation. The results of both are less than inspiring. What could the west have done? I can only think of one thing. Putin really wanted a personal friendship with Bill Clinton, and pressed this point with Hillary. It would have ruined her presidential hopes to facilitate this friendship, but in the end, it may have saved countless lives, and the future of the Ukraine and the well being of Russia and the so called western alliance. Or perhaps, it wouldn’t have mattered. The problem might be very short guy, with a very big chip on his shoulder with too much power, and too big of a nuclear arsenal . And this power , far exceeding that of anyone since Stalin, was gladly transferred to him by the Russian nation. Give the the Donetsk People’s Republic, and good luck to them all.

]]>
By: Roger http://www.economicmanblog.com/sandbox/2014/09/22/ukraine/#comment-3065 Mon, 22 Sep 2014 13:26:44 +0000 http://www.economicmanblog.com/sandbox/?p=510#comment-3065 Hi, Tom, good to hear from you.

I think that there are a lot of analogies to WWI and other moments of great international misunderstanding. As I have commented before, most notably in “What to Do About Syria” (http://www.economicmanblog.com/sandbox/2013/09/07/what-to-do-about-syria/), one of the consistent mistakes that we, as Americans, make in our foreign policy dealings is to underestimate the cynicism of the rest of the world. I truly believe that America — “the shining city on a hill” — is very often well-intentioned, but we would be foolish to assume that our actions are always interpreted this way or that the entire world shares our assumptions and values. This produces a huge amount of foreign policy mistakes. By no means do I consider this an excuse for these mistakes since I firmly believe, to quote the great Milton Friedman, that “sincerity is a greatly overrated virtue.”

To come to your question, I don’t think that there is any inconsistency between the undertakings we (and Russia) previously made to Ukraine and the currently proposed course of action. The idea would be to conclude a “grand bargain” with Russia in which we would both work for a neutral Ukraine (and Georgia); after all, we committed to protect Ukraine’s independence, NOT to bring it into NATO or the EU or to promote Western values in this hopelessly corrupt country. Although the chances for striking this bargain are much reduced by the fact that the credibility of Russia and the West are now engaged, we should at least try it; this, along with some guarantees for the Russian minority, might be a sufficient political victory for Putin to call off his dogs. If, conversely, Russia persists in its aggression, then this will be evidence for the alternative interpretation of its behavior and it may call for a greater response.

]]>
By: Tom Saylak http://www.economicmanblog.com/sandbox/2014/09/22/ukraine/#comment-3053 Mon, 22 Sep 2014 11:31:24 +0000 http://www.economicmanblog.com/sandbox/?p=510#comment-3053 Phew Roger,

Good piece. One observation and one question: for an interesting allegory, see the naval arms race pursued by Great Britain and Germany leading up to WWI. Both sides grossly misunderstood and misinterpreted the motivations of the other, with disastrous consequences. Margaret Macmillan analyzes this well in her recent book. My question is: how do the assurances Clinton gave Ukraine regarding their forfeiture of nuclear weapons in return for Western guarantees of security, misguided though they may have been, play into our responsibilities in this matter? Seems difficult to unscramble those eggs!

Best,

Tom

]]>